vaultofthearchonfandomcom-20200214-history
102403-is-sticking-it-out-actually-a-thing
Page 1, Page 2 Content ---- ---- I can't think of another media where this is acceptable. | |} ---- ---- I almost never watch a TV show unless it gets a second season, Fox cancels everything good after one season anyways. And Syfy wouldn't know a good Sci Fi show it it slapped them in the face. | |} ---- Whats funny is Wildstar may very well be the game that brings the issue finally into the spot light if the dwindling player numbers are as bad as I've seen. It would be a victory and a tragedy at the same time if at once the WS community reacted as one and unsubbed proving that we are as mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore. | |} ---- So are you saying you would put up with a horrible 1st season if they promised the 2nd one would be better? | |} ---- ---- What numbers have you seen? Wildstar is currently on par with Lineage II. Pretty much every MMO ever released had to sift through bugs and glitches for its first 6mo - year. All of them still struggle with precise balancing and bug fixes. Nature of the beast. | |} ---- Well yeah, different media, different people and just different in general. Games aren't easy, and with today's games, they become even more complicated. | |} ---- I have no numbers other than my guild losing 1/3 of it's members in a week. So I'm only going off of my gut here. But just fyi, Lineage 2 came out 10 years ago. Maybe not the best comparison. | |} ---- ---- I get that we're a different breed of people and I appreciate the scope of mmo's and the amount of talent/work needed to create a world (themepark) from scratch. However, all developers past, present and future have had/will have the ability to learn from all the lessons learned from the last 10 years and either update, fix them or get rid of them entirely. Going past your suspense and allowing sub-par products to be released to the public is not only unethical, it's unprofessional and does nothing but hurt future opportunities for profit/market gain. | |} ---- instead what'll probably happen is a slow bleed for a few months/year until everything is fixed up and the "hardcores" have gnashed their teeths a bit and ran off screaming vengeance. then the game either runs a massive ad campaign or a f2p style deal to attract back players ala ToR or Rift. | |} ---- Sometimes it is worth sticking something out. Taking your example, many shows pick up a lot from the second season they're also likely to iron out any bugs. A mediocre first season can turn into an amazing show if you have some patience and of course sometimes good shows have a lackluster late season but pick up again. But with a tv show, your commitment can be as little as an hour or two (When most people will decide) or even a full season at 13-25 odd hours. That time can be compared to the enjoyment if it gets much better and be deemed worth it. I do however agree with your first point. Sticking it out for two months can run around $90 plus over a hundred hours of playtime. The improvements would need to be pretty amazing to make sticking it out worthwhile. On top of that there's little reason to stick through the bad times, if you just waited then you could save time and money seeing if things improved first and hop in. Unlike a tv show, you aren't missing plot threads or important information by jumping in when it's good. This game has taught me to ignore mmo hype, and to never support one at launch again. When developers start releasing a finished product I might reconsider that decision. | |} ---- I was thinking about this earlier. How they might be allowing for a significant margin to be "come-back-ers" I'm not against this really. However I would've felt much more comfortable if they would've said that up front. Or better yet, not release the game until some spot inbetween the launch date they had and the "comeback" cutoff date. | |} ---- My personal guess is the release was more Ncsoft's decision. it'd explain how halfassed some of the endgame decisions seem. or how feedback saying those systems were halfassed in beta seem to have went ignored. They might have not had time to even start moving on them. | |} ---- It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This is a real personal dilemma for me. I, again, could understand waiting. Just not with an active sub. And then I just get upset at the fact they could've easily just released it at xmas and save me the hassle. Quick disclaimer - I'm halfway kidding when I'm making suggestions as I have no intel on the innerworkings of a company's finances and schemes, much less a media company with strict deadlines. | |} ---- I, no kidding, would've payed 100 dollars for the game AND a 15 sub fee if they would've released the game 2 months later and finely polished. Maybe this is the next payment model eh game devs? lol. This could be the next "f2p" idea. | |} ---- ---- ---- I could give examples but they would all be subjective. I can only name the top 3 which I perceive needing the most work and balance that against the amount of public outcry. 1. Endgame/Loot system wasn't thought out. Seems inaccessible to some, unrewarding to others and unclear to most. 2. Pvp - Just no 3.Small bugs that wouldn't have been a big deal had the major issues been addressed in a timely manner quick aside - The issues don't need to be fixed immediately!!!!!!! They don't. That is not the issue. The issue is the lack of communication from the devs. If Carbine would just own up to lacking the manpower/resources to address the small glitches/bugs, we could handle that. I agree that time is indeed what this game needs, just not on the poor blokes dime who has to endure the game instead of enjoy. Dem profit margins dough. | |} ---- Well, you have to keep a few things in mind: A: Carbine has 200 staff working on the game to create it and, in their off-time, to do some checking. Then they had a couple weeks of alpha and beta testing with a few thousand people. We caught a lot of bugs and glitches during those phases. Then the game had a three day headstart and launch, where the game was put through its paces by probably a few hundred thousand people for almost two months now. Simply by sheer virtue of numbers, it's impossible to find everything that could have possibly been found. B: This is considering that an MMORPG is a much, much larger and more complex project than, say, Ubisoft coming out with another Assassin's Creed game. That can be done in a year with a lot of code recycled, since there's no reason to change it. Wildstar was built with a custom built engine and enough content to sustain open world PVE, PVP, personal housing, etc. It is probably ten times the sheer scope of your average single-player game, and the myriad issues that can be raised balancing all those spinning plates. C: Games twenty years ago had bugs. A lot of bugs. Games ten years ago had bugs. Games being released this year have bugs. This hasn't changed from the earliest days of gaming to now; you can't catch everything. The biggest differences between MMORPGs now and games then are twofold: a non-linear game means that a lot of those bugs will be found and games now can fix their problems through updates. D: If I wasn't on forums like these, I wouldn't have known how many or what kinds of bugs other people are finding. I've run into two so far that I'd consider to affect gameplay, and not to an insurmountable amount. As far as I can see, this is the single smoothest MMORPG launch I've ever been in (and I've been in many over the years). That isn't to say these bugs don't exist, but we're a lot more aware of them now. Part of the reason we think everything is so "buggy" is because everyone else can point to bugs and let us all know about them. Back years ago, a game could be a broken piece of shit if you didn't play it exactly the right way, but since everyone played it only one way and nobody really shared the information unless you went looking for it, you wouldn't know that going backwards through a wall you weren't supposed to walk into would have you fall endlessly and eternally through the level until you hit reset. Now, you hear if a boss acts a bit shifty on a pull. We're simply going to hear about them more. E: If it's really affected your experience to the point where it's not fun for you personally to play, it's up to you whether or not to leave and wait for the game to be patched to whatever level you'd find acceptable. From what I've heard, most of us don't fall into that category; I certainly don't. I'm perfectly willing and happy to fund Carbine's continued development so that they can debug the issues other people are having, as I'm having a Hell of a time with this game. Maybe it's having been around to see how badly Funcom screwed the pooch on the MMORPG I anticipated most before Wildstar, but I'm actually very impressed by the speed Carbine has displayed getting through issues. Things that were a problem at launch really aren't anywhere near as disruptive now. From what I've seen, they've certainly earned their 15 dollars for last month and this month. F: Also, I think there are a lot of guilds thinking people left when they didn't. It's why I haven't joined a guild yet. I do a lot of alt-jumping back and forth across the faction line. If I'd joined different guilds for all my characters, only one guild would think I'd been on this week. Two would assume I hadn't been on at all in the last two weeks. Some characters would make it look like I'd quit shortly after launch. It's not a good metric unless you have their account added as a friend, since then you can see when they last logged in. Just about all my account friends are still around on one server and character or the other. | |} ---- Lol, hurry up and buy. I really am a fan of pay to win. I can see how the young and the unemployed would take offense. But meh. | |} ---- ---- Could you be more presumptuous.. | |} ---- You really know how to skirt the amount for TLDR lol. Good points though. This really isn't a hate on WS. More the now standard mmo-flowchart. Sigh, I guess all I can really do is draw up some wildstar porn, sell it, and hope to buyout NCSOFT. | |} ---- If I have to... ...do I have to? | |} ---- ---- Well, it isn't as if I don't get the frustration. It comes from a good place though. I mean, if you were playing and there were bugs, and you didn't give a shit because the actual game itself was just a boring slog through mindlessly easy content with nothing else to do, that'd be a problem. If you're really into the game and enjoying it, then it comes to a crashing halt because you can't seem to get your items from a quest and the only way to know you have to kill the human mobs before the robots to get it is to ask in zone chat, then it's a problem, but one more easily fixed. I'd rather have Wildstar with twice as many bugs in the queue to get debugged than to have a shitty game that ran flawlessly. It's one of the reasons I have so much respect for SquareEnix. FFXIV was a horrible game. Really, truly horrific. I was there for that launch, and it wouldn't have mattered if there wasn't a single bug in the game, it was shit. SE literally redesigned the entire game and rereleased it (Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn) and that game is pretty damn good. Not as good as Wildstar IMO, but I wouldn't call anyone out for thinking otherwise. But SquareEnix deserves all the credit in the world for taking however long it took and doing whatever it took to make that game work. Compared to that, Wildstar's having a great release! It's at least a great game from the get-go, even if it's not perfect and we all have a wish list of things we'd like altered or improved. | |} ---- I don't mind pay-to-win in a f2p game, but I firmly believe that a sub-based game should remain a level playing field for everyone paying a sub. That said, yeah, there are definitely elements of this game that scream that they're planning to go f2p sooner rather than later. Obnoxiously priced mounts, a per-character RNG-based dye system, limited bag space that puts many f2p titles to shame... | |} ---- ---- P2Win is an instant unsub/leave/never return. Been there, tried that, f2p asian mmo's are infested with it. (you see it screamingly loud in browser mmo's on kongregate lol) No skill to be found in Credit Card Warriors. | |} ---- yes | |} ---- Yeah... | |} ---- Not according to Carbine. I'm pretty sure an internet search would find the interview where Gaffney (I thinK) is talking about how great its been with NCsoft and how they have been allowed to make all the decisions and NCsoft basically kept out of it and gave them room to do what they needed. they were not forced by NCsoft to release the game is what Carbine says so I assume that is true. I know everyone loves to make NCsoft the bad guy but this time the blame lies with Carbine whether you like it or not. | |} ---- lol why...its fun to watch. Its like watching "real house husbands of nexus" lol. | |} ---- Couldn't have said it better myself. It's so obvious why some of these systems are setup the way they are. They want to double dip their playerbase. Carbine should be ashamed of themselves and the Subscribers should be offended that they think we are this stupid. | |} ---- Because you can't really pirate MMOs. People don't *cupcake* about other forms of media when they're not paying for it. | |} ---- It's "2 months later" now. This is what the game would have looked like if Carbine had released the game 2 months later. It's not like the devs released the first UltraDrop with 1000+ bug fixes by sitting on their hands. This is the story with every MMO. I guarantee you that whatever new MMO you consider leaving WildStar for will have the forums filled with complaints about the very same thing. It's just not possible to release an MMO with no bug, optimization or balance issues. That's why it's considered acceptable to wait it out. People seem to have it in their heads that since MMOs have been around for years that every new MMO should be more polished and more perfect than the previous one, but they all use a lot of original coding and can't draw upon the innovations of previous MMOs as much as one might think. | |} ---- ^ This | |} ---- It is possible to release a MMO with no bug, optimization or balance issues - it just isn't practical. Games can't stay in beta for 10 years; launching 2 months early probably cost them a few subs. This is a big game with a lot of stuff at launch, the number of problems simply reflect the scope. You could release Pong with zero issues, but I doubt you could charge a subscription for that. I like the game so far so I'm "sticking it out" - playing and having fun while devs make it better. If there comes a point where I'm not having fun or the devs stop working on it, I'll stop playing. | |} ---- Probably because other media doesn't have millions of individuals, who follow their own programmed preferences, shooting holes in an entire virtual world across multiple platforms from angles only live fire action can identify. PoS smart phones will be bug-free long before MMOs are because their platforms are singular and contained by comparison. But apps can be made to work for both Android as well as iPhone platforms! Indeed ... but so can WildStar's addons. The day apps and addons become their own virtual MMO worlds is the day PC gaming moves almost exclusively to simulations. | |} ---- ---- ---- Dinner and a Movie. | |} ---- ---- Unfortunately, bad player support, bugs, imbalancing and lack of content seems to be a staple of games these days. If you haven't noticed with Greenlight/Kickstarter, in about 5-10 years all our games will be sold as Beta's, then Alpha's, then you'll buy the game before anyone has even worked on it at all. (concept stage) You'll still have some of the playerbase fanboying it away and refusing to admit the errors that exist (they still exist regardless). Not gonna lie either, they all do seem to be pretty young these "white knights" The sad thing is, most people are actually ok with all of the above, which means nothing will change. Modern gamers like being treated worse than a *cupcake*, it's pretty sad. | |} ---- Best cheese i saw was people spending 140 bucks to get Landmark and literally build Everquest Next for SoE. | |} ---- dont assume people are going to newer mmo's and not their old favorites or back to other genres altogether. personally im fighting the urge to play defiance and shoot up the joint since tribes acend is a ghosttown | |} ---- you know Soe sells all that user content on commission | |} ---- Proves my point eh? If it's already happening in a small amount, increasing in the Greenlight/Kickstarter phase (although I'm cool with Kickstarter because it actually makes good products unlike Rock simulator) Which brings me to my issue of indie gaming sites other than kickstarter Rock simulator $5 pledge Literally, they'll send you a picture of a rock. Wtf kind of stupidity is humanity coming to? | |} ---- As well as threads overemphasizing how much personal life grief the bugs in this game cause people. | |} ---- This game has been in development for 9 years, per carbine. I don't know that 2 months makes that big a difference in that scope. | |} ---- ---- SHUT UP! There's nothing wrong with hybrid octopus flying sharks. In fact! all those hybrid movies are just pure originality with some fine fine acting Piranhaconda Sharkman! dinocroc vs supergator "Dino-mite and Croc-tastic! Sharktopus megapython vs gatoriod WHAT'S NOT TO LOVE?! WHAT'S NOT TO LOVE I SAY! | |} ---- ---- I too celebrate mediocrity and not standing out from the crowd in my chosen form of entertainment medium! Here's to not challenging expectations! Hurrah! | |} ---- If only bugs were the only problem. Wildstar is 99.9% prep work, it's just not worth it. Grind for this, get rep for that, go do this for attunement, grind elder gems for a month to buy a skill point... The entire game is a bunch of busy work and it's boring. No, all mmos are not this tedious and boring. There are serious, fundamental design problems with the game. Most people are stuck at 50 and quitting while there's an entire world filled with trivial, solo quests. Hundreds and hundreds of trivial quests and a handful of instances, half of them aren't even very good. It's not really hard to see what the problem is. They made a "harcore mmo" and filled it with the most boring, solo content possible and not nearly enough group content. PvP being very poorly balanced certainly doesn't help either. Endgame is simply a disaster. It sounds dramatic, but it's true and the game is suffering as a result. | |} ---- Waiting out the hiccups in the first 6-12 months is actually old school. People who freak out and bail on a new MMO used to be a tiny minority. | |} ---- It's nothing new, it's you that's fresh on the scene lol relatively speaking. Pet Rocks are a really old thing, someone just took it up a notch and made it a modern joke. | |} ---- Sure. And, as someone who's been playing MMOs for over a decade, I can give you two really good reasons for it: No MMO in history has ever shipped with anything resembling well-balanced combat. Skipping the first three to four months saves you endless drama over what gets nerfed and what gets buffed. If you wait until the first big balance patch, your favorite character never gets nerfed (or at least not as hard as the overpowered character builds do in that first balance pass). Here's something that every failed MMO of the last decade has had in common: at about the three month mark, they laid off about 70% of the developers and gave up on shipping new content more than, say, once or twice a year, and gave up on patching exploits much more often than, say, every couple of months. Waiting to see if an MMO developer is going to do that can be a self-fulfilling prophesy, I grant, but it saves you the annoyance of investing a couple of months in a character that you're just going to abandon out of boredom anyway. This, I contend, is the truth behind the over-used claim of "WoW Tourism," the meme that nobody wants to leave WoW, they just wish WoW shipped content more often, so between WoW content drops they spend a month or two in another MMO. I think that's mostly bull. I think a lot of people are bored with WoW, but publishers, who almost all have had way implausibly inflated estimates of what the second and third month revenues would be, panic and kill their own MMOs in the third or fourth month, sending people back to WoW. So, yeah. Having played (just to name a few disappointments) Tabula Rasa, Auto Assault, Star Trek Online, The Secret World, and Defiance? and having left all of them in boredom when the content patches stopped coming in a timely manner? If I hadn't been at a really good stopping point in the game I was playing before this, I would have done the same thing your friends are doing, waited a couple of months to see if NCsoft and Carbine were going to kill this one with mass layoffs, and if the players were going to kill it with massive over-reactions to much-needed nerfs, before investing money, and then this many hours, in a new MMO. | |} ---- Um that's always how MMOs have been. They never find their stride until 3-6 months after launch. | |} ---- ---- There weren't as many alternatives. Nowadays, the market has changed but companies continue to operate as though consumers don't have more choices of where to spend their entertainment dollar. Adapt or die. I'll let you guess which one wildstar is doing. | |} ---- ---- Are you being paid by word count or post count? | |} ---- ---- You make it sound like the dark times between the fall of Atari and the rise of Nintendo. The early days of MMOs were nothing like that. There were dozens of companies making the jump within a year of Ultima Online and a few other games hitting it big, and there was a thriving PC gaming marketplace. There were tons of alternatives available. It's just that consumers then had a more realistic notion of how long things took to develop, and weren't so scatterbrained impatient. They could spend their money elsewhere, but they didn't because they invested in their games instead of playing like nomads. The crowd that hops from game to game loves to go on about value for their entertainment dollar, without ever considering that getting game after game and tossing it aside without giving it a chance to get good is a waste of their money. | |} ---- ESO.... yeah, got suckered into that mess. anyone saying Wildstar released broken OBVIOUSLY was no where near ESO at launch. with all the broken stuff in the starter areas that game wasnt even really out of closed beta. (not to mention shutting down for about 8+ hours launch day to prepare the game for release, which kinda proved to the head start people you werent even playing a release version) | |} ---- That's funny, cause it seems to me that those who believe people are either "white knighting" or "haterz" or whatever strike me as the young and reactionary crowd. From what I've seen of game forums lately, especially in mmo's, a select few rant and rave like crazy people about how bad it is, then the general audience gets annoyed and starts slamming any critique of the game because they're tired of it, and nothing of value gets more than 2 responses. Here at least, most of the people that are long since tired of some folks like that one guy in this thread we all know and don't love, are still willing to discuss what needs to be fixed and improved upoun. Also, the upside of getting into an mmo early is, if they're as good as w* then you're getting to play something new and fresh as opposed to settled mmo's that may be bug free with a much smoother design and reward system, but are dull to play as we've all done it before a thousand times. TLDR People are not either A or B, good or bad, and just because you're carrying on like lune about how bad you think the game is, it doesn't mean the rest of us don't see these problems, we're just trying to be more pragmatic about it, and realize forum fires do little to fix games. | |} ---- I'd say this echos most of my issues. I don't mind bugs or imbalances or lack of content. Those are to be expected. My problem is with the design choices mentioned above. Sorry, but most MMOs tend to get better and try to draw in more players after launch, not alienating more and more of their playerbase. | |} ---- The dark times? Hardly. Right now you can find and play any of several dozen MMOs within the span of a day. That option simply didn't exist back in this "early day" period you're talking about. You're trying to lump me in with some group that hops from game to game since I mentioned "entertainment dollar", which is lazy of you. I waited on wildstar to come out for a while after playing other things like Warframe (terrible game) and Path of Exile (great game), both of which I was able to get great value from because I didn't spend any money on things. I highly value my entertainment budget, and for me to spend it on this game and have it turn out this bad is very off putting. You can talk yourself up as much as you want, but that doesn't change the reality of the market now. | |} ---- Honestly I think the poeple leaving aren't leving because of the bugs, I think it's because of fundemental design decisions. Or that could just me projecting. I'm fine with bugs or class imbalances some quests not working or what not, but the grinds, money sinks, time sinks, RNG, gate after gate after gate. It begins to push my patience. | |} ---- This is correct. The bugs are annoying, but manageable. The design of the game is the opposite of fun. It seems all you do in this game is something boring in an attempt to possibly do something fun down the road. No thanks. | |} ---- They might aggressively sell the game later after they have done more polishing but they need to take care of other factors first.. i doubt they would go f2p since the credd system is in place to prevent that. Eve is still sub base with a moderate community with a similar system. I think thats what carbine is shooting for. | |} ---- This is the truth of it, and what the staunchest defenders of the game don't want to acknowledge. EVE is also a game without a timegated cap on character progression. YES, skills take days and months to train, but you are always training them. There's never a period where you say, "I want this skill, but can't work towards it any more this week because of an arbitrary gate that says I get no more skill points after 2 days". Also, EVE creates its own content via the players. CCP releases new WAYS for players to interact with each other and the environment, but the players themselves are always the chief drivers of events. wildstar isn't ever going to be anything like that. | |} ---- ---- I dont know, I still have a lot of fun logging in and playing. but then I have never regarded end game as the place the game "starts". for me, the game starts teh first time my character steps into the world and I enjoy the journey. thus far, the journey is a lot of fun and have not found anything I consider boring or a "job" yet. it is still a nice escape | |} ---- I think its more the design choices... most of us players have had to sit back in many mmo's while they where addressing bugs so the community as a whole is used to it.. But there are some decisions that carbine has made that does create a feeling of being overwhelmed and well lets face it... frustration leads to boredom because not everyone wants to scale a mountain to get a glass of water. I say give it time.. this is a big balancing act on carbine's part since they set out to tackle a tough crowed to please with a new IP. | |} ---- Watch out guys, it's on par with a game released in OCT 2003! | |} ---- So THAT's what they meant by oldschool hardcore! | |} ---- Their totally different games in comparisant but the credd system has its similarities. It would be nice to see more mmo's come out with player based content similar to how nvw attempted it.. unfortunately the game did a so so job at executing it. Ill admit normally i support time gated currencies but with as many options and necesseties that are offered to spend elder gems on.. i completely disagree with carbine on this matter. I would rather see a daily limit that excedes the weekly at the end.. than see players only logging in 2 times a week to play. | |} ---- I spent three weeks' elder gems to unlock another action set. Then I realized how *cupcake* stupid it is to make the ability to play a new role cost three weeks of elder gems. It's painful how stupidly implemented the system is. | |} ---- Be careful what you wish for mate If I was a wildstar dev, and read that, I would think that what you wanted was for the current dailies content to award 1/5th the EP, so you have to do every daily every single day in a week to cap it. Because "we will NEVER nerf stuff!" so lets make EP (the last EASY thing) much harder for everyone who already hates to login. | |} ---- ---- Or you can, hear me out now, you can remove the limit on elder gems so we can actually get amp and ability points if we play enough. I mean, for a #hardcore game, they sure don't like giving things to people who play too much. Waiting 3 weeks for EG resets to get your actionset for PvP #hardcore. Buying crafted from AH to skip everything till 20 man's save for attunement #hardcore. Skipping half the dungeon for attunement #hardcore. | |} ---- What happened to those games? AoC, FFXIV 1.0, Aion, Champions Online, AutoAssault, Warhammer to name a few. Where are they now? | |} ---- RIP Warhammer. And SWG. Greatest crafting system ever, but that didn't save it. | |} ---- the release seems a lot better than many in recent history in terms of bugs etc. its all perspective however, they were waxing poetic about Rifts before being brought up short in another thread. its safe to say they just dislike the game, why they continue to stay with it is likely just to continue posting. my view is, if you like playing, keep playing, if you dont, tell them how you feel with your money. | |} ---- ---- I liked a lot of things about Vanguard. But playing it was a chore, too many bugs and not much to do killed it. (wait. what? That can happen?) | |} ---- Maybe it's because they are tired hearing you whining on everything. I don't regret buying the game and i'm having a lot of fun playing it. So i guess you should just wait out and-or play something else. | |} ---- ---- For someone who's only been here 3 weeks ... is acquiring three weeks' elder gems to spend on unlocking another action set even possible? | |} ---- Movies: don't go until you see the reviews from actual viewers. Books: don't buy them until you read the reviews from actual readers. Games: don't buy them until you read the reviews from actual players. New restaurants: don't eat there until it gets a good Yelp review. Employees: don't hire them unless they have a good resume. It really applies to every medium and human action everywhere. Terms like "acceptable" don't apply. It just is how it is. | |} ---- It's true. I mean Fifa and Cod are the same game over and over, and yet people eat that crap up. | |} ---- |} Which part? Only being here three weeks? Or acquiring three weeks' elder gems in only 3 weeks of playing the game? Yes please. That is why I posed the question. | |} ---- Many people go to the movies based on previews. How many people are going to wait for a review for "The Avengers; Age of Ultron" Same thing, J.K. Rowling didn't become a bagillionair because fans "waited for reviews" Again, same with movies. Am I (or others) gonna wait for a review for the Witcher 3 or Dragon Age 3? nope. How many gamers waited for CoD last year? or the year before, or the year before that? People check out restaurants all the time, if they are good, go back, if not don't. It's one meal, not a loss. Hiring employees may be the most accurate, but I know for a fact people still get hired off the street with nothing more than a brief interview. People buy, go to, get stuff with little or no prior knowledge all the time. "Great things come to those who wait" yes, indeed, but, "The the early bird gets the worm." | |} ---- When I got to the brief interview part, all I could see was underwear in an office talking about jobs. I think I've lost my mind. | |} ---- So member forum accounts and game accounts are mutually exclusive then? | |} ---- That's not the correct usage of mutually exclusive. The forum accounts track your forum usage. They don't track your game usage. Ergo, trying to say someone has only been playing for 3 weeks because they've been on the forums for 3 weeks is an assumption and baseless. | |} ---- Interesting. My forum profile's Member Since date is 24 Mar 2014, but my first forum activity wasn't until 17 April 2014. Which means our profile's Member Since date indeed reflects account start date, not forum activity. Unless it is somehow possible to play the game without an account? Maybe things changed after beta closed. Though as my profile illustrates, Member Since dates remained intact even after the final wipe. :blink: | |} ---- ---- ---- Only took a few years and complete rebuild of FFXIV to get there. :P Should've seen 1.0. Ghost town for sure there. | |} ---- Still, past is the past... same can be said somewhat loosely for Vanilla WoW, or DCUO, Star Trek Online, or several other games... what matters is success... you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs (I'm sure if WS was actually doing decently viable you'd be gushing its success as well...). The even better part about Realm Reborn... have had literally ZERO bugs/glitches/crashes/etc... game runs like a champ and just keeps on going. The missus' laptop has had tendencies of overheating and shutting off... but from what I've read, that seems the standard norm for laptops running that game... will hopefully figure out a solution soon. PS - And yes, heard the horror stories of 1.0... ironically, Wildstar emulated a lot of the issues in 1.0... clunky interfaces, hidden/hard-to-find menus, broken gameplay, etc. (Come to think of it, there's several MMO snafus exhibited in WS.) Also, thank you for at the same time, pointing out just how old Realm Reborn is, while still be mind-blowingly successful. :D | |} ---- FFXIV is old, FFXIV:ARR isn't very old. Two different games. Two different lead developers. I'll admit, I had fun in ARR. But for a three year or more total overhaul, it had better have been worth it or SE wouldn't be a company anymore. | |} ---- Even though different lead developers, it shows they were willing to totally start over and push it back out for the fans, which is more than can be said for several games on the market. And as for what you say about "been worth it"... eh, subjective... not sure if you mean it's no longer worth it to you... but by its success it's obviously worth it to the millions still actively playing it. As far as ARR not being very old... the concept, engine, framework was all patented at the start of FFXIV... and since Realm Reborn was an official reboot and not a new number in the series... I'd consider the "birth" of FFXIV, be it 1.0 or Realm Reborn, when the original FFXIV first started. PS - Also, as far as I know, FFXI is also doing well at present (I think?)... and that title in comparison, was never rebooted. ;) | |} ---- My biggest gripe was farming tomes and guys. guys new boss. It's Titan/ifrit/garuda again. Guys! Super new boss fight! It's Titan/ifrit/garuda again harder. Guys! Super new boss fight! It's Titan/ifrit/garuda again harderx2. Other than that I miss my fae-fae heals. | |} ---- The amp and the ability points are not meant to be granted in a short amount of time.. these are here to reward players that intend to stay for the long haul. There are many games out there that reward player loyalty this way. Now granted the elder gem reward cap is a bit low vs the cost of items in the vender but the intent is the same if you want the shiny you gotta work for it. | |} ---- But I keep hearing my spellslinger will be competitive in dps and heals after we all get our max amps/ability points. Do I continue to hold everyone back for a few years? | |} ---- The Member Since date is your WildStar account activation date, and your first activation email is your receipt for it. Thus, an account that's only three weeks old spending three weeks' elder gems to unlock another action set is a hoax. Why do people even feel the need to do this? Too bad we can't build an astroturf wall of shame like the Teams did. | |} ---- Try explaining that to Carbine in a couple months when they start balancing around maxed amps/ability points when almost nobody has them. Better yet in two years (assuming the game survives that long) when everybody has them except the new players who will have to wait for 6 months to get the amp/ability points. Yes wait. There's no skill or hardcore involved in waiting a week for your cap to reset. Just pure sub time. This game isn't set up for growing in subs at all. Just dwindling. This game is already designed to be f2p. Pay $50 for one amp point incoming. | |} ---- Well, can see the logic in that, however, same deal as Secret World dungeons... or even the raids in Wildstar I guess... then again, those are whole dungeons, as opposed to just "guys" I suppose. Hehe. :D If they want to reward longevity and loyalty, fine, but do it in a way other games do it, not directly in the dead-center of gameplay progress -- otherwise it's just hard-set gating meant only to trap players into having to sub for longer periods of time... as in just a means to keep lining their pockets most typically see right through and end up leaving, as is the case in this situation rating in importance quite above the enjoyment/appreciation of customers/players. To use Realm Reborn, again, as an example... the veteran rewards are fluff items... minions (vanity pets), costume clothing, free appearance change potions, etc... and they're achieved not by how many days you're even on for, but how long you're subbed for. Just topped account the other day for 60 days, while still inside the free 30 days, already qualified for, and received, Veteran tier 1 and tier 2 rewards. | |} ---- If your a good player you shouldn't be holding anyone back.. I cant think of any content off the top of my head that cant be completed because you don't have cap on your skill or amp points.... | |} ---- works well enough for EVE where your training is just straight sub time. sure, back in the day you could let your sub lapse and come back when the skill timer had run down. no actual skill involved with that. last I checked EVE is still around and is not F2P | |} ---- Oh yeah, love those EVE comparisons... because obviously Wildstar is just as much of a sandbox as EVE, functions exactly the same, and offers the same exact rewards for invested time and actually pushing oneself to make the most of themselves... oh wait, no it doesn't... my bad. :P Since we're tossing out games that have nothing in common, can I be next in comparing Wildstar to Farmville or Need for Speed Online, or maybe even NeoPets or Hello Kitty Online? :D #ThatWouldBeSoCupcakingHardcore (Or one could even pitch the comparison between Wildstar and Second Life... both have means to invest real-world cash for in-game currency, both can get really dry really quickly, and both leave you with not much more to do than tinkering with your house, outfits, and inventory.) | |} ---- If you're hardcore enough as a fresh 1.6m sp newbie in Eve you can go ninja salvage / pvp / suicide gank / mission your way to getting enough isk to purchase a 60m+ sp pilot and skip a few years of skilling. The equivalent would be amp/ability points being something that players take from themselves to sell to you. Which isn't the case in Wildstar. They're basically nonexistant outside of being purchased from the elder gem merchant. | |} ---- Far easier to clear content with other classes given the same ilvl/runes/abilitypoints/etc. Why bother bringing something that even at max gear, max play is just flat worse than someone who can screw up and still do better, even with worse gear? | |} ---- ---- I haven't heard any statements from carbine that you will have to be cap at your points to do any of the upcomming content. Nah it will be like most other games that have a similar system new players will see its a time sink.. and play like nothing is happening putting the notion of getting more points on the back burner with intent to get them later.. like many players have done already. And no its not designed to be F2P...its designed specifically to be sub.. thats why you got shit thats going to take quite a while to complete.. | |} ---- Just wait 6 or so months. You'll see. | |} ---- Just read your FF comment(quoted this because it's smaller lol). I started playing like 3-4 days ago. Everything you said was correct. I am surprised at how active it is. Must be that whole "accessibility" thing they've got going. :D I'm on Brynhildyr(?). http://xivsoul.com/ Until I saw that I had no idea how successful it was. FF:ARR has to be the second biggest subs-based Fantasy MMORPG. | |} ---- The high prices on items would transition painlessly into direct purchases. Want that Strain hoverboard? Just buy it outright for $80, don't fart around selling credd since they don't exist any more. Want those ability/amp points? Buy each one for $20 and don't fart around farming EG since there's no reason to timegate people who aren't paying a sub. Want that decoration for your house? Buy it for $9.99 and don't bother farming renown from group PvE. | |} ---- Considering Wildstar was supposed to be the game to break the mold and it hasn't. "This game is for the jaded MMO players." It sure as *cupcake* is, it's proof that people don't learn from their mistakes. | |} ---- ---- how is this product sub part in any way shape or form? | |} ---- I think it was gw2 that calimed they where breaking the mold.. which they did..and in the process lost the glue to put it back together again WS just claimed... hardcore!...and chua's, but mostly hardcore! | |} ---- I really wish I could find the stream that said exactly what I quoted about it being for jaded MMO players. Unfortunately, it's conveniently gone missing from Twitch. | |} ---- New theme for discussion: removed the embedded image so have this link http://a.pomf.se/texncq.jpg I think sticking it out and hoping things change is actually counterproductive, as voting with your wallet is the best way to voice your concerns directly to the company. If you keep paying, the company thinks things are okay. If you leave, even to go inactive for a bit and come back "when things are fixed", you're communicating that things do, in fact, need fixing to keep you as a customer. | |} ---- ---- Agreed. Hit the profit margin, people get yelled at, things change. | |} ---- Or the company could listen to it's employees(and customers) that are saying that shit's busted. I know, it's crazy. | |} ---- I'm just surprised at how they got so much wrong despite their love of Metrics(Hey let's not do what that uber-successful game is doing now. Let's do what they did 10 years ago!!!! lol). I think they listened to Mr. Jaded way too much. Mr. Jaded wants you to rebuild and compete with his memory. Mr. Jaded has no idea what makes a good MMORPG. He's too busy being resentful of that popular MMORPG success overshadowing and killing the MMO he wishes they all were instead of recognizing what that popular MMORPG does well. This MMORPG was made for the Jaded MMORPGer. Too bad for Carbine that the reality is MOST of us enjoyed our time in that popular MMORPG. Being as fundamentally good and philosophically different as that popular MMORPG but not so far away from the standards it set that you appear radical or even Archaic, while being Mechanically different but in a good way, is a much better idea than chasing Jaded MMORPG players. They are typically stuck in the past, borderline masochistic or paranoid that they won't be as good. Carbine listened to them and here we are. | |} ---- Pretty sure we saw how that worked with the beta. | |} ---- ---- Best way to make a company listen? Hit the profit margins. If you keep showing up to buy starbucks when it tastes like mud, they'll think "Man, this new mud flavour is a hit!" and well... things stay the same or get more muddy. | |} ---- Thats part of the problem right there.. is hoping there will be change.. there will be change to what degree who know's I don't play the game to wait i play the game cuz i got friends and guildmates who do and we find stuff to do despite whether or not we disagree with some of the elements in the game..Sure ive had plenty of moments where i logged out look at the ceiling and say"Why!" The game isn't bad enough for me to want to quit atm. Actually quite the opposite.. and im no fanboy of the game by any means. I do have my concerns mostly with faction balances and the customization being as bad as it is..as well as itemization but so far most of these are issues that carbine has intent on dealing with.. | |} ---- I am Mr. Jaded and I hate that popular MMO. If this was just like that, I wouldn't have even considered playing this, just like I won't ever consider playing that popular MMO ever again either. | |} ---- It's a delicate process, to be sure. If you actually care about the game, you have to keep yourself involved in the process of improving it even if you vote with your wallet and stop playing it; otherwise, who knows where it could end up? Unfortunately this opens you up to being attacked by over-zealous fans who tell you to leave since you're not playing any more, and that the game is fine. I suppose only time will tell. | |} ---- Indeed & Agreed... believe the "jaded gamer" could also be loosely referred to as "hipster". :D Wow, just looked at that link... knew the numbers were good, wasn't aware THAT good... nice! Gonna' have to bookmark that... we're on server Malboro. B) | |} ---- ---- Exactly. Adapt or die. wildstar didn't adapt. | |} ---- Amen to this! I was actually a part of the whole closed beta thing in Wildstar. I pointed out as did a lot of others that this game was not ready for a launch. A lot of people were actually telling Carbine to do a winter 2014 launch but they didn't listen. | |} ---- ---- Glad to see every single one of them go. I know I know: "Hurr have fun playing alone!" I don't care. Anything is better than the "I can't wait to resub to WoW" crowd. | |} ---- I've been doing that with WoW since Cataclysm. Yeah, it's a thing. | |} ---- If it was that great why did they unsub? | |} ---- They aren't. XIV and ARR pale in comparison to FFXI. The only reasons XIV managed to survive its massive crash was the previously existing casual player base from XI that fanboi'd the game back. XIV is SE's casual response to the hardcore that was FFXI; why are you comparing a massive failed casual game that's been brought back for the fanbois of one of the largest RPG franchises in history to a niche hardcore mmo with a brand new IP? The only reason XIV still exists is the pre-existing IP; if not for the FF brand it would have stayed dead after it died the first time... Clearly SE used a phoenix down... | |} ----